Wikinvest Wire

Tuesday, July 19, 2011

Common Sense Is Allowed

Two points that have been made here repeatedly resurfaced elsewhere in the last day or two and are worth repeating.

First was an article from theStreet rerun on Yahoo Finance that took on the 4% retirement withdrawal rule. The article cited a study from T Rowe Price that says instead of starting at 4% your first year and then increasing by the rate of inflation that instead less should be taken out during a bear market.

As I read through I gravitated to whatever you got, 4% (more correctly 1% per quarter) which is something I've been writing about for years. It makes no sense to me to start taking $30,000 out of a $750,000 portfolio and then somehow take $30,900 out the following year from a portfolio that shrunk to $680,000 in a down year. A withdrawal rate anchored to some highwater mark combined with a large drop in the market (and presumably the equity portion of a diversified portfolio) would seem like an obvious path to a financial plan-rewrite.

I view this as more of a common sense issue more than anything else. Typical financial planning is important in terms of understanding probabilities and if probabilities and reality end up converging then there should be fewer things to worry about but people cannot ignore when probabilities and reality diverge. A $50,000 withdrawal rate from a portfolio that would seem to allow for only a $40,000 withdrawal has a very high likelihood of leading to serious problems as a matter of common sense.

Denial plays a large role here of course but if reality diverges from the plan in a negative way then something will have to give. If you've got $800,000 then the 4% rule allows for $32,000, if it drops to $700,000 then 4% calls for $28,000. Simple as that.

The other issue is the latest round of US and European bank stock implosions and the lingering of sovereign credit problems. Prices general got hit very hard yesterday and Sean Jones from Egan Jones was all over the place scaring everyone about everywhere.

As I mentioned the other day jobs and housing in the US show no meaningful signs of turning around. Europe is having what looks like a very slow moving contagion on the back of all sorts of fundamental problems. It seems only logical that financial companies would face serious problems against that backdrop. Expectations for the worst crisis in 80 years to wrap up neat and tidy in a year or two (from 2008) have always baffled me.

In terms of simply wanting to avoid the market's worst problems the amount of work to be done here is minimal. For someone who needs to be exactly correct, maybe for shorter term trading purposes, then obviously the work is much greater but for most market participants figuring out what to avoid will go a long way toward long term success in pursuit of the goal of having enough when you need it.

That certain segments of the market are going to have fundamental problems for a long time to come seems like a matter of common sense. I'm sure someone will buy UniCredit at €1.08 and get a great trade but the fundies are a long way from being healthy.

There are plenty of investment destinations not facing their worst financial crisis in 80 years. They may go down in some sort of sympathy in the short run of course but when we look back on this decade in 2020 it will be these markets that had "normal" or better than "normal" decades.

7 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is the 4% withdrawal rate rule in addition to dividends and interest that the portfolio earns? For instance, if your portfolio yields 2% would you only withdraw .5% per quarter or is it still safe to take out 1%?

Roger Nusbaum said...

4% is the withdrawal rate, period. If the portfolio yield 4% then it could all come from dividends although I doubt the portfolio w/b well diversified if it had a 4% yield, I do realize not everyone cares about that.

I do believe that a portfolio yield close to 3% can be had along with what I think of as proper diversification so in theory a 3% yield plus selling 1% would work out to 4%.

Tom said...

Roger,
I have difficulty with the idea of the fixed percentage withdrawl that you suggest - although we are currently using it. Don't all of the studies use 4% of your initial balance the first year and then use that dollar amount adjusted for inflation in future years. With a fixed percentage, you would never use all of your nest egg. As an extreme example, if you planned on living until 95, during your 94th year you should withdraw 100% of your balance, not 4%.

Wouldn't it make sense to simply use the number of years you want your nest egg to last? For example, if you want to plan for a 30 year retirement, you could withdraw 1/30 of the initial balance the first year, 1/29 of the new balance the second year and so on. That would automatically adjust for years when the portfolio went up a lot and years when it went down a lot.

Obviously no one knows for sure how long they will need their money, but that is a flaw with most of the models.

Stephen Drone said...

I've often thought that many articles on this aren't clear.

As you say, you shouldn't add the inflation rate to the AMOUNT you withdraw. At best, you add the inflation rate to the PERCENTAGE you withdraw. so, if inflation rate is 2%, you'd withdraw 4.02% the second year.

But for god's sake, why not throw common sense at this? If you need 4%, withdraw it. If you don't need 4%, withdraw less.

Roger Nusbaum said...

Tom,

Certainly most studies say to add inflation but I think this relies way too much on linear returns which is not how the market works. A large draw down combined with a w/d based on some past value greatly increases the risk of failure.

The other thing that is related is the occasional large one-off expense. Yes you may never run out sticking to 4% in the manner I describe (not a bad thing) but they way I think of it it allows you to better absorb the expensive unexpected.

SD, less than 4% would of course be living below your means Boo yea!

HKM said...

This 4% rule threw me for years. I assumed that it accounted for an averaged inflation rate already, but the biggest problem is figuring in taxes. It sounds so easy that this withdrawal is what you will spend, but as I understand it, that is actually pretax, right? So if you are living off of taxable income, you aren't looking at 4% at all. Going forward you could be left with just 3% or less, depending on where C/G and dividend taxes end up.
Also, I find the results in the Yahoo article strange. If, for example, there is a bear market and you reduce your withdrawals by 25% for 3 years per their second projection, how does that fill in for, say, a 20% portfolio loss per something like 2009? You would only be replenishing, say, 3%.
Am I missing something?
Thanks in advance.

Roger Nusbaum said...

Taxes are of course a factor and obstacle to all plans. The 4% accounting for inflation; I agree in that the portfolio is hopefully going up in such a way as to keep up with inflation.

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