Thursday, April 01, 2010
Dividend Investing
This will fall deaf on some ears as the topic often draws passionate comments but I'll give it a try anyway.
Yesterday I read a post on Seeking Alpha called The Four Percent Rule For Dividend Investing In Retirement from an anonymous blogger named Dividend Growth Investor. The post basically lays out a premise for constructing a dividend based portfolio focused on the rule of thumb about not withdrawing more than 4% in retirement.
An important building block of understanding (although probably not new to you) is that over very long periods of time dividends have accounted for about 40% of the total return of equities. Dividends matter in just about every type of the stock market behavior except for up a lot, IMO. The way I look at, with equities up 65 or 70% in the last twelve months whether or not you collected an extra 200 basis points doesn't mean that much but if the market is anywhere from down 10% to up 15% then an extra 200 basis points could be very important.
The Dividend Growth Investor, per the article would split a portfolio into four categories;
1) "The first component would be fixed income securities such as 30 year Treasury Bonds."
2) "The second component would consist of higher yielding stocks with low dividend growth. Likely inclusions in this list include Master Limited Partnerships."
3) "The third component of the portfolio would include mature companies which offer yields similar to average market yields, but which have enjoyed solid dividend growth."
4) "The last component will include companies with low current yields, which have the ability to generate double digit earnings increases. This could generate solid dividend growth in the future."
He did not suggest how to weight the four and did not mention whether this would be the totality of the portfolio.
In averring for the 30 year treasury (he may have been taking generically) he mentions the "stability in the principal and income would provide at least some cushion in certain catastrophic events." There was no mention of the risk of buying a 30 year bond if interest rates rise. I'm not sure if he does not know how the math works out but if rates go up (they are very close to all time lows) then investors who bought 30 year paper with the intention of holding will be down a ton (about 12% in price for each point that rates move up) and then be stuck with a below market yield.
In point number 2 about MLPs, occasionally they get hit very hard as the Canadian ones were back in October 2006 when news of a tax status change came out. There is room in a diversified portfolio for some MLP exposure but to repeat from past posts is you are getting an 6% yield in a 1% (or zero percent) world you are taking risk, you either understand that risk or you don't. In the paragraph he also includes REITs Realy Income (O) 5.6% yield and National Retail Properties (NNN) 6.57% yield and utilities like Consolidated Edison (ED) 5.34% and Dominion Resources (D) 4.45 yield. Utilities tend to not do well if rates go up.
In discussing point number 3 he mentioned Johnson & Johnson (JNJ) 3.01% yield, McDonalds (MCD) 3.30% yield and Kimberly Clark (KMB)4.20% yield.
Companies discussed in point number 4 were Walgreen (WAG) 1.48% yield, Becton Dickinson (BDX) 1.88% yield and Medtronic (MDT) 1.82% yield.
Assuming each of the four groups gets a 25% weighting in the portfolio and giving equal weight within each group to names he mentioned the average yield (assuming 4.72% for the 30 year bond which is where TYX closed yesterday) of the portfolio is 3.91% obviously just shy of the 4% targeted in the title.
The biggest risk to this mix, I realize my assumptions of what is implied could be incorrect, is that half of the portfolio is at serious risk if interest rates rise. I compared the names above to the TYX and found a stretch in 2005 where TYX went up for a few months and most of the names in that second group had noticeable declines during the run up in rates. I should note that the move up in rates was only slight, I picked that period because it lasted for several months.
If rates really move up, and that is the question to be asking at this point, then I think this half of the portfolio would get hit pretty hard.
My idea of a diversified portfolio includes exposure to every big sector of the market with stocks of many different attributes so that there is at least some exposure to whatever is leading the market. Value can be added by overweighting the area that ends up leading the market but if that call is not made correctly at least there is some exposure.
Low vol, high yielding holdings have risks too. In addition to the above, occasionally dividends get cut.
The 4% withdrawal rate is about taking money out at a rate that does not cause the portfolio to blow up. In theory a 2% yield and 4% average price appreciation will more than get the job done (this is a simplification because returns are never that linear). Using (recent) history as a guide the stock market goes up a lot every so often and a reasonably diversified portfolio will capture most of the effect, a gross overweight of dividend payers will not.
Getting a 4% yield for an entire portfolio is very difficult to do, 3% on the other hand is much more approachable. Not mentioned in article is that plenty of foreign stocks with volatility characteristics close to the market (so they could go up a lot if the market does) but aren't necessarily that interest rate sensitive. There are many high yielding foreign oil stocks (so regular equities tied mostly to the price oil as opposed to being income vehicles).
I'll mention long time holding Statoil (STO) which is due to go ex-div in May for its annual dividend. Based on current numbers it yields about 4.3%. A few of those combined with some higher growth names could easily get the portfolio yield up into the high twos or close to 3%. I own plenty of high yielding stocks for clients, as I do believe in trying to kick up the yield ahead of the market, but not at the exclusion of higher growth names.
Even in retirement people need growth. Based on a 3% inflation rate prices/expenses go up 50% in 15 years. A fit 65 year old with good genes could easily go through two fifteen year stretches.
In addition to Statoil, many clients own Johnson & Johnson and some clients own Consolidated Edison.
Yesterday I read a post on Seeking Alpha called The Four Percent Rule For Dividend Investing In Retirement from an anonymous blogger named Dividend Growth Investor. The post basically lays out a premise for constructing a dividend based portfolio focused on the rule of thumb about not withdrawing more than 4% in retirement.
An important building block of understanding (although probably not new to you) is that over very long periods of time dividends have accounted for about 40% of the total return of equities. Dividends matter in just about every type of the stock market behavior except for up a lot, IMO. The way I look at, with equities up 65 or 70% in the last twelve months whether or not you collected an extra 200 basis points doesn't mean that much but if the market is anywhere from down 10% to up 15% then an extra 200 basis points could be very important.
The Dividend Growth Investor, per the article would split a portfolio into four categories;
1) "The first component would be fixed income securities such as 30 year Treasury Bonds."
2) "The second component would consist of higher yielding stocks with low dividend growth. Likely inclusions in this list include Master Limited Partnerships."
3) "The third component of the portfolio would include mature companies which offer yields similar to average market yields, but which have enjoyed solid dividend growth."
4) "The last component will include companies with low current yields, which have the ability to generate double digit earnings increases. This could generate solid dividend growth in the future."
He did not suggest how to weight the four and did not mention whether this would be the totality of the portfolio.
In averring for the 30 year treasury (he may have been taking generically) he mentions the "stability in the principal and income would provide at least some cushion in certain catastrophic events." There was no mention of the risk of buying a 30 year bond if interest rates rise. I'm not sure if he does not know how the math works out but if rates go up (they are very close to all time lows) then investors who bought 30 year paper with the intention of holding will be down a ton (about 12% in price for each point that rates move up) and then be stuck with a below market yield.
In point number 2 about MLPs, occasionally they get hit very hard as the Canadian ones were back in October 2006 when news of a tax status change came out. There is room in a diversified portfolio for some MLP exposure but to repeat from past posts is you are getting an 6% yield in a 1% (or zero percent) world you are taking risk, you either understand that risk or you don't. In the paragraph he also includes REITs Realy Income (O) 5.6% yield and National Retail Properties (NNN) 6.57% yield and utilities like Consolidated Edison (ED) 5.34% and Dominion Resources (D) 4.45 yield. Utilities tend to not do well if rates go up.
In discussing point number 3 he mentioned Johnson & Johnson (JNJ) 3.01% yield, McDonalds (MCD) 3.30% yield and Kimberly Clark (KMB)4.20% yield.
Companies discussed in point number 4 were Walgreen (WAG) 1.48% yield, Becton Dickinson (BDX) 1.88% yield and Medtronic (MDT) 1.82% yield.
Assuming each of the four groups gets a 25% weighting in the portfolio and giving equal weight within each group to names he mentioned the average yield (assuming 4.72% for the 30 year bond which is where TYX closed yesterday) of the portfolio is 3.91% obviously just shy of the 4% targeted in the title.
The biggest risk to this mix, I realize my assumptions of what is implied could be incorrect, is that half of the portfolio is at serious risk if interest rates rise. I compared the names above to the TYX and found a stretch in 2005 where TYX went up for a few months and most of the names in that second group had noticeable declines during the run up in rates. I should note that the move up in rates was only slight, I picked that period because it lasted for several months.
If rates really move up, and that is the question to be asking at this point, then I think this half of the portfolio would get hit pretty hard.
My idea of a diversified portfolio includes exposure to every big sector of the market with stocks of many different attributes so that there is at least some exposure to whatever is leading the market. Value can be added by overweighting the area that ends up leading the market but if that call is not made correctly at least there is some exposure.
Low vol, high yielding holdings have risks too. In addition to the above, occasionally dividends get cut.
The 4% withdrawal rate is about taking money out at a rate that does not cause the portfolio to blow up. In theory a 2% yield and 4% average price appreciation will more than get the job done (this is a simplification because returns are never that linear). Using (recent) history as a guide the stock market goes up a lot every so often and a reasonably diversified portfolio will capture most of the effect, a gross overweight of dividend payers will not.
Getting a 4% yield for an entire portfolio is very difficult to do, 3% on the other hand is much more approachable. Not mentioned in article is that plenty of foreign stocks with volatility characteristics close to the market (so they could go up a lot if the market does) but aren't necessarily that interest rate sensitive. There are many high yielding foreign oil stocks (so regular equities tied mostly to the price oil as opposed to being income vehicles).
I'll mention long time holding Statoil (STO) which is due to go ex-div in May for its annual dividend. Based on current numbers it yields about 4.3%. A few of those combined with some higher growth names could easily get the portfolio yield up into the high twos or close to 3%. I own plenty of high yielding stocks for clients, as I do believe in trying to kick up the yield ahead of the market, but not at the exclusion of higher growth names.
Even in retirement people need growth. Based on a 3% inflation rate prices/expenses go up 50% in 15 years. A fit 65 year old with good genes could easily go through two fifteen year stretches.
In addition to Statoil, many clients own Johnson & Johnson and some clients own Consolidated Edison.
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14 comments:
For whatever reason, I've been looking into dividend portfolios using ETFs lately. This is, unfortunately, complicated by the fact that I'm not a fan of Wisdomtree.
If you're creating a 60/40 portfolio, there are several ways to construct the 40% fixed income portion. There are several ways to do U.S. equity, mostly large cap. There are a couple of ways to do foreign exposure, and pretty much no way that I know of to do emerging markets exposure without Wisdomtree.
It's an interesting idea, esp. in a down market or if you're not sure where the market is going or if you want to keep taxes down.
You see a lot of stocks right now with high yields (you mention foreign energy, I thought of BP). I've been tempted by this idea.
Morning, Rog,
It seems that investing is a matter of "pick your poison", if long term yields rise substantially then the bond funds are hosed but, as you point out, so are many stock sectors. I choose instant gratification in the form of distributions with a few energy and PM stocks in case the fiat currencies decline together simultaneously. Silver, in particular, has a pretty good story that has nothing to do with Armageddonish forecasts made by doom and gloomers (I say that with respect, not sarcasm).
And I stand ready to hedge or take defensive action in case the markets move against me...
Mark from L-Ville
For a contrarian view, from Vanguard
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who need more cash flow than their portfolios yield, the total-return approach is the preferred method. Compared with the income-only approach, the total return approach is likelier to increase the longevity of the portfolio, increase its tax-efficiency, and reduce the number of times that the portfolio needs to be rebalanced. In addition, for most investors, a total return approach can produce the same cash flow as an income-only approach with no decrease in return and a lower tax liability."
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Thank you for today's post, Roger. I read the original blog and found it rather naive.
Without a lot of rambling, it basically ignored foreign stocks and bonds, bond tools like floaters, and REITs, which, despite their current issues, can outperform in periods of inflation.
As a retiree, income is very important to me. I hope your post whips up some good chat today!
here is another point of view:
http://www.psyfitec.com/2010/01/psychology-of-dividends.html
I still believe dividend investing is an important part of portfolio construction
The first sentence is hilarious: "One of the more amusing failures of classical economics is its inability to explain why companies pay dividends. "
I follow dividend growth investor fairly regularly so perhaps I can add a bit. Don't take this as a defense.
His focus is to buy long paying dividend companies (aristocrats, achievers, champions) that grow their dividend each year with the intent to hold forever or until they cut the dividend.
His blog has 249 entries, only 1 of which talks about fixed income. WHen I read this article it really struck me as odd that he would give 25% weight to bonds as he never talks about it.
I cannot recall once him talking about interest rates or other topics that other blogs, including Roger's, discuss. I doubt those enter into his calculations for better or for worse.
I've found his dividend analysis to be interestig, indepth and quite good so I presume he will have more on bonds in the future.
Anon 7:27: He did mention REITs in the second component making up high yielding, low growth.
SD: I dont care for wisdomtree either. I like the concept they are trying to do but dont think they pull it off well.
Thanks, Rhianni32. Apologies to the original blogger regarding REITs. anon 7:27
I like the concept of dividend investing, but I do not think this is a good time to implement the strategy. This is a cyclical bull market with no end currently in sight. But at the end of this bull the secular bear will eventually emerge. The next low in the next bear market would seem like a great time to implement a dividend portfolio, but not now.
Fall on deaf ears? Not at all! I've followed your blog and borrowed from your "process" over the past three years, but dvidends are an important attribute to my portfolio holdings. Like you, I fear long term bonds and have listened to you on risk aversion re" 5 in a 1% world". I'm listening and agreeing Roger. Keep reminding me not be stupid!
Happy Easter,
Sam
Did your snow melt yet?
ty Sam
the aspect of our property is such that we melted ages ago but across the street is the opposite aspect and still mostly covered.
It's interesting that even Bill Gross thinks dividend paying stocks are the place to be in this rate environment.
Be really cautious about the higher yielding funds listed here. Most are impacted by rising interest rates. Sure, you'll get your dividend payments but the price of the fund will drop substantially, offsetting that gain.
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