Tuesday, March 23, 2010
All About The Benjamins Basis Points
In the last couple of days there have been a couple of articles about sub-advisors and products (so to speak) that go along with that part of the business. This article from IndexUniverse gives a definition and an explanation. An RIA firm has to do several things to keep the doors open. Existing clients need to be serviced, assets have to be managed, compliance needs to be maintained, new clients have to be sought and the office needs to be run (bills paid, systems maintained and the like).
That is a lot of tasks many of which are full time jobs all by themselves. This is one reason why RIA firms hire a sub-advisor. Another reason could be that for some firms, the skills the partners bring to the table, it makes sense to hire out for portfolio management expertise. This isn't that different, IMO, from a rep at a brokerage firm putting client accounts into programs where the assets divvied up amongst various managers; like maybe one for large cap, one for small cap and one for international.
To read the IndexUniverse piece and this one from Barron's it would seem that sub-advising is big and going to get bigger. As with just about every thing there is good and bad to this. First the good which is to understand that people hire advisors for all sorts of reasons and how they manage a portfolio is not necessarily the first consideration. Financial planning can be a multifaceted task and people have all sorts of needs. To the extent someone builds a practice that focuses on multifaceted it is unlikely they have the time needed to construct and manage a portfolio. In this sort of circumstance finding the right person, whatever that means, makes sense and clients will understand it.
The negatives are potential fees and the adding of layers of people. The IndexUniverse article talks about fees sometimes totaling 2% between paying everyone and then if funds, exchange traded or otherwise, are part of the mix. I think the fees adding up to that much is more common in brokerage firm programs. Obviously if you are reading this as a prospective end user you need to understand the fees you are paying. The idea that X% is always expensive or always cheap over simplifies the topic. A fee needs to be reasonable relative to the situation not some arbitrary figure although I can't imagine someone with a few hundred thousand dollars needing nothing special beyond a diversified portfolio needing to pay 200 basis points.
I view layers of people is a big negative as well. An example I have used often is with brokerage firm programs. A manager in one of these programs receives an account to manage has to assume that the asset allocation decision has been made and fully invest the account. This becomes problematic if the client expects assets will be protected. If the broker is not doing that, in this example, then no one is with the context of protection being raising cash for concern of a large decline coming.
In a circumstance where there are layers of people the advisor has to ensure that it is crystal clear about how the account will be managed and the end user needs to make sure they get it and are on board philosophically.
Where I stand on all of this can only be from how we do things. There are all sorts of products like fund of funds, wrap accounts, SAM programs and more that serve to make things more complicated and usually more expensive. I tend to be leery the more sophisticated something is. I have been a big proponent of simple brokerage accounts using some combo of stocks and funds with as little between the account holder and the manager as possible. A reasonably simple and diversified portfolio is very unlikely to cut in half unless the market cuts in half and that can't always be said for some of these other products. No account holder wants there account to cut in half and no investment advisor wants to have to explain why it cut in half. The simpler a portfolio is the less likely you face this situation.
That is a lot of tasks many of which are full time jobs all by themselves. This is one reason why RIA firms hire a sub-advisor. Another reason could be that for some firms, the skills the partners bring to the table, it makes sense to hire out for portfolio management expertise. This isn't that different, IMO, from a rep at a brokerage firm putting client accounts into programs where the assets divvied up amongst various managers; like maybe one for large cap, one for small cap and one for international.
To read the IndexUniverse piece and this one from Barron's it would seem that sub-advising is big and going to get bigger. As with just about every thing there is good and bad to this. First the good which is to understand that people hire advisors for all sorts of reasons and how they manage a portfolio is not necessarily the first consideration. Financial planning can be a multifaceted task and people have all sorts of needs. To the extent someone builds a practice that focuses on multifaceted it is unlikely they have the time needed to construct and manage a portfolio. In this sort of circumstance finding the right person, whatever that means, makes sense and clients will understand it.
The negatives are potential fees and the adding of layers of people. The IndexUniverse article talks about fees sometimes totaling 2% between paying everyone and then if funds, exchange traded or otherwise, are part of the mix. I think the fees adding up to that much is more common in brokerage firm programs. Obviously if you are reading this as a prospective end user you need to understand the fees you are paying. The idea that X% is always expensive or always cheap over simplifies the topic. A fee needs to be reasonable relative to the situation not some arbitrary figure although I can't imagine someone with a few hundred thousand dollars needing nothing special beyond a diversified portfolio needing to pay 200 basis points.
I view layers of people is a big negative as well. An example I have used often is with brokerage firm programs. A manager in one of these programs receives an account to manage has to assume that the asset allocation decision has been made and fully invest the account. This becomes problematic if the client expects assets will be protected. If the broker is not doing that, in this example, then no one is with the context of protection being raising cash for concern of a large decline coming.
In a circumstance where there are layers of people the advisor has to ensure that it is crystal clear about how the account will be managed and the end user needs to make sure they get it and are on board philosophically.
Where I stand on all of this can only be from how we do things. There are all sorts of products like fund of funds, wrap accounts, SAM programs and more that serve to make things more complicated and usually more expensive. I tend to be leery the more sophisticated something is. I have been a big proponent of simple brokerage accounts using some combo of stocks and funds with as little between the account holder and the manager as possible. A reasonably simple and diversified portfolio is very unlikely to cut in half unless the market cuts in half and that can't always be said for some of these other products. No account holder wants there account to cut in half and no investment advisor wants to have to explain why it cut in half. The simpler a portfolio is the less likely you face this situation.
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14 comments:
Roger,
Like to leave a comment from yestarday’s discussion, if I may.
One think about country dept, if the fed keeps on printing money, it will take care itself by inflation. If US dept held by other countries and demand to be paid in non US$ than the US will have a problem. China and Japan hold lots of US dept and china already is buying assets with such dept. Like an exploration/oil company from Swiss conglamorate. This is a way not to have a confrontation and use US dept to get hard assets, very smart. But those that say that corp dept is safer well if USA capitulate it will not be so great to US corporations. Before that I think that a war is more likely. I am with RW. You must know history and economics to make good decisions the rest is just noise. However, there has been lots of noise about US dept, gold and ect.
I am glad that I have been reading this blog. I have learned quite a bit. Rogers post and he comments from RW, SEG and many others have prone me to read and study many market/economic topics. That way one can know the actual and the noise.
One thing that I would like to study and get my handle is monitoring monetarism for timing the market, based on the comment that SEG made on his model.
Seg, if you like to explain a bit, I appreciate.
Thanks Roger, RW and SEG,
Best,
Jeff from Milan, Italy
Simply inflate.
Sounds so simple. This has been the solution for southern European countries for decades. The cost has been trailing GDP growth compared to northern European countries.
Germany's low inflation model leads to a more prosperous model
anon 5.47 - The Gov is the lender of the last resort. When things get bad it is better that we all pay for it than have a destabilizing country with anarchy. Back in march/09 there were talks about such things for the USA. The FED has printed money and has allowed the banks (stronger ones) to recoup and provide a social stability.
Germany knows very well, and has an export model where they run surpluses but they have choked the growth of other EU members. They will have to lax a bit to give a better completive advantage to France and others like Italy.
When you look at the alternative of print >inflation, you start looking at some awful alternatives that you my friend would not wish to experience.
Greece has big problem because they have to pay their dept in euro the other alternative id to exit the euro zone convert their currency into what they had prev. to the euro and devaluate. After many years, than they come back in. However, there are no EU regulations for that so this problem may hit all of us soon. Or, the Germans owe Greece 38 billion in war repayments. Greece had gone to Germany several times before and Germany told them that the payment is owed by all Germany. Now that they are one country, can rescue Greece and get the EU off the hole. Start writing regulations in the event that a member country is close to default.
Best,
Jeff from Milan, Italy
I work for an I.T. outsourcer, so it kind of doesn't surprise me that money management companies "outsource" or "subsource" some of their money management. It's cheaper than hiring/training more people.
I honestly don't like it, but they have to satisfy shareholders.
I am not in favor of deflation and understand why the fed printed a lot of reserves. I understand the consequences of deflation.
But increasing debt levels to the point that the only way out is significant inflation is not a solution either.
The solution is LOW levels of positive inflation - less than 2%
Both deflation and high levels of inflation are both bad for an economy.
Increasing debt levels for a country are also bad as it seems almost criminal to leave future generations with excess debt levels because we can not show a reasonable level restraint in building bridges to no where and other such nonsense. It may look good in the papers but in reality the government always over pays, the payments go to insiders for bribes and you simply end up with more corrupt governments.
Again while corruption is everywhere it is more prevalent in southern europe.
Bringing up war debts is a bad idea. the war is over. Or maybe Rome should pay for atrocities committed through out Europe and North Africa during the Roman Empire. I am sure we could also come up with payment owed by Greece due to atrocities by Alexander the Great.
Or you could just forget about war reparations as those paid after WWI led to WWII. Do you want to risk starting a civil war in a couple of decades from now in Europe?
OT another big risk is a potential trade war developing
China does manipulate its currency, but suggesting a 25% tariff on Chinese goods would start a trade war. Krugman is an idiot.
Roche and others say the problem is with the US as the US needs to save more. This is true, but they should admit China is a currency manipulator and simply argue against starting a trade war.
Unfortunately, the likely hood of starting a trade war is all to real and the consequences would be staggering. A tariff to make things fair will just start a tiff for tat that will not end.
I am not real clear if there is a nice way to protect our portfolios from this risk either.
If fees get to 2% can you really beat buy and hold vs the Vanguard total market index fund?
anon 7:34, 2% becomes a big bogey. A decent manager will at times easily overcome 2% and other times not.
A while back I posted an example where a fictitious active manager lagged the market every year it went up but got defensive at the right time. in that example the fictitious active manager came out way ahead.
when looked at over a slightly longer period of time beating the market or not becomes easier to quantify as someone who is really adding value will begin to compound the effect and pull way ahead or conversely hug the index.
the definition at the top of the blog was, in my opinion, wrong on one point. you do not have to get new clients, except when you are starting out. if you are good, new clients will come to you, usually by recommendations from existing ones.
as for fees, 2% is insane.
schtookmeyer,
even bringing a referral is time consuming from the standpoint of taking in what they need, explaining the firms philosophy, meshing the two (or not) and then logistics of opening and implementing the account.
Mish has a post
Gerald Celente Predicts "Crash of 2010"
I am not saying I agree with what he says, but he is predicting a crash based on printing and China issues.
the Mish link
http://bit.ly/9sjDos
Here's a link to a money manager whose fees are $4,000 per year regardless of portfolio size. He manages $1.8 billion in assets. There is some great reading on this site, although the passive nature of his style won't go over well with this crowd.
http://www.evansonasset.com/index.cfm
Evanson's approach seems to make sense to me, espcially considering if the new safe withdrawal rate is 3%, which includes all expenses, a portfolio manager charging the typical 1% eats up 33% of that "safe amount."
I think the real value of a money manager for a lot of people is hand holding and preventing them from making a disasterous move at the wrong time. I have even read that some money managers have a difficult time with their own money, but do well with client's money. We are all susceptible to behavioral biases.
"China is a currency manipulator"
Back during WWII, if China had their monetary system pegged to the US dollar, we would have felt like Masters of the Universe because we've have so much control over the Chinese. Now that we don't have control anymore, we want the Chinese off the dollar....
...
just looking at this from an impartial view.
Also, governments are much like corporations. Yes, governments create much debt. But how many CEO's have said "pay me $200,000 instead of $25 million and please, no stock options for me because I don't want the corporation to be burdened in the future."
Everyone will do whatever they can get away with. Until we stop our government AND business leader from raping the system, they will.
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