Wikinvest Wire

Thursday, February 19, 2009

I Have No Solution

First a funny; at about 4:50 am Arizona time on Wednesday (I woke up early with the first cold I've had in about five years) there was a guest on Squawk Box who was trying to give a pep talk to the US economy and he concluded by saying "and Plan B is Vancouver, British Columbia because New Zealand (pictured above) is too far away."

As I listened to Obama try to explain what we are doing with the bailout it sounded like much more of broad based helping hand for people with everyday hardships as opposed to an economic solution based on numbers. I don't mean to minimize losing a job, getting sick or anything like that but should the government be bailing out that sort of bad luck? Hasn't sickness and job loss always been a risk that people took with no expectation of a bailout? Maybe my take is wrong but it sounded like this sort of thing is part of the equation.

There is also a tricky element of what we are teaching all sorts of people about what behaviors might get rewarded. While it is not completely correct that the bigger a screw up someone is the more they get bailed out the plan does head down this path at least a little.

Mark Haines asked a good question about whether the government will get paid back when prices start back up (when ever that is). If you bought a house in 2006 for $400,000, it goes to $500,000 in 2021 by way of $300,000 and you some how get $25,000 of help because you are under water in 2009; do you have to pay that $25,000 back? Looking back from 2021 should you have ever gotten any help? As the title of this post says, I don't know.

I heard all sorts of statistics thrown around about how many people face foreclosure, how many people can be helped by the bill. I'm sure of the various numbers I heard at least one was correct, spin notwithstanding, but none of the numbers sound very large as a percentage of the population. If that is correct then we are spending a trillion or two, thus borrowing very heavily from our future, to play big brother to less than 10% of the population? It would be reasonable for more people to ask if that is the best course of action.

One problem facing people is that their LTV prevents them from refinancing (pre Obama plan). This is preventing us from refinancing our house in Hilo (yes I know second homes are not covered). However when we first applied to the bank in the buying process we could have borrowed more than the purchase price of the house which I think creates an LTV problem right out of the gate, had we done it. Now I'm thinkin' that if I can pay $1930 per month (plus a few hundred extra principal every month) then it is a safe bet that I could still handle the payment if it dropped by $400, can I get a hollah?

Despite the news flow more people are actually in my shoes than are in trouble. Wouldn't there be a positive impact on the economy putting $300-$600 more into healthy consumers' pockets than bringing unhealthy consumers back to the Mendoza line? And wouldn't that be cheaper? Do I have this wrong, is there an unintended consequence of telling banks to work with healthy borrowers?

Lastly did I miss the extent to which there will be a consequence to people who get bailed out?

Most people get nothing directly. Maybe you get the benefit of fewer foreclosures on your block, but maybe not. Most people get nothing, that I do have right.

Now for something completely different. Are you watching the Tour of California bike race on Versus? I am a huge cycling fan. If you watch any cycling ever then you are familiar with Phil and Paul, the announcers. Well for the Tour of California they have inserted third wheel Craig Hummer and Craig is doing most of the talking which takes a lot away from the enjoyment of watching the tour. If you are a cycling fan and agree with me you can click here and let Versus know how you feel. If you don't care about cycling maybe you can do a good turn by the people who do like it and tell Versus less Craig, more Phil and Paul.

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

John Hussman has been pounding the table about a payback for those who get help that he refers to as "PAR" in his latest commentary and to which he refers many times over in the past in archived commentaries:

http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc090217.htm

YOU CAN'T GIVE PEOPLE SOMETHING FOR NOTHING especially if they're in trouble due to their own stupidity and greed combined with bankers greed in the salad days. rant over

DE

Anonymous said...

Roger, what don't you get about "income redistribution"? It is what candidate Obama said he would do and Pelosi and Reid are all too happy to oblige him. Why would you expect any less?

IMO, this nonsense will last for two more years and abruptly end with the next congress. In the meantime, bend over, here it comes. Hope you like it rough!

Anonymous said...

Roger - I agree with your comments 1000 percent. If they really wanted to boost the economy they would give payroll tax relief to employers and workers and jsut let the housing market fall so it can bottom out and come back on its own. Little cost to administer also. They are prolonging the angony with all of this wealth transfer.

Anonymous said...

The real answer is to arrest and convict GW Bush.

This is the first step to bring confidence back to global markets.

Anonymous said...

...try astrolube. Not that I would know or anything.

I wonder what kind of advice Buffet and Volcker(sp?) are giving Obama. Supposedly, they have his ear. I wouldn't think they would agree with this sort of moral hazard.

Anonymous said...

6:40: I hope that was a joke. Bush had his issues certainly (big spender), but the alternatives of Kerry or Gore would ahve put this country in much worse shape. I least Bush is fought terror and kept the US save. I pray Obama will continue but ahve my doubts.

Anonymous said...

I'm sure Rush has a solution.

Bill B said...

Nothing new. They're using fear and intimidation to take our money. As one previous anon mentioned, if they really wanted to jump start things, they'd leave the money back with its rightful owners. Politicians want more power and fear is a great way to get it from the masses. Once you see politics this way, the rest just becomes noise in the struggle. The snide remark about "I'm sure Rush has the solution" just shows how they've got us fighting with each other while they clean us out.

But more importantly ... watching a bike race? Surely this has to be something covered in great detail on The Ocho.

Roger Nusbaum said...

"that's right, Cotton."

Anonymous said...

In addition VS has Bob Roll doing cameo bits...I think he is funny as anything. The first few days were so messy on the tour with video interrupted that I think they all ran out of spit talking about nothing, plus CA lost a lot of promotional air time of its beautiful coastline. Yesterday was the first great day with a photo finish.

The housing bailout is junk. Home prices have to return to near historical trend affordability. Assets (absent government intervention) will revert to the strongest investor. Sorry, but we all ain't beautiful or wealthy or wise. But hey he's doing this as fast as he can so that the folks have time to forget by the next election. IMHO

Anonymous said...

welcome to the obama presidency...it will be 4 years of helping only 10% of the population. Unfortunitely, I don't think most (if any) of the readers of this blog are in the 10%

Anonymous said...

welcome to the obama presidency...it will be 4 years of helping only 10% of the population. Unfortunitely, I don't think most (if any) of the readers of this blog are in the 10%

Anonymous said...

Three comments. Anon 6:24 AM has it right; the Obama administration is, and will continue to be for (hopefully only) the next 2 years, all about "income redistribution." I think it was on CNBC (may have been Fox) that an announcer asked an Obama fan about the stimulus plan and she responded that she totally supported it because she would get a $1,000 check from it. The announcer then noted that her family would get a $7,000 tax increase in exchange for the $1,000 check, and that was not a good deal. What the announcer missed is that her family will not get a $7,000 tax increase because her family, likely, pays no tax (income tax); and the real fact is that his (the announcers' family) will get a $14,000 income tax increase over the next who-can-say many years. If you pay no income taxes, then you don't care if the rate goes up. Finally, announcing the home mortgage plan yesterday in a campaign environment, characterized by cheering partisans, was very un-presidential.

Anonymous said...

If Obama and congress were serious about starting to fix the economy they would continue a saftey net for those that need it and give a payroll tax holiday to employers and workers. There are 5 million today on unemployment. At $30,000 per year that is only $150 billion, a large portion of which we were historically paying out anyhow. Both of these actions do not require new and wasteful administration. This just goes to show as many others have pointed out that this is all about a transfer of wealth from those that are productive to those that continually have their hand out. This is how the left (and the right to a lesser extent) gain their power. I hope the American people wake up and take action in two and four years.

Robertm73 said...

What is funny is that Joe L on CNBC this morning said about the same thing as plan B. They where talking gold and he said I like to have gold so I can flee the country. Is it me or are the rats thinking about jumping ship. I know I have as well. But I find it much more scary to see that attitude on the MSM.

AAlan said...

"I don't mean to minimize losing a job, getting sick or anything like that but should the government be bailing out that sort of bad luck? "

At the risk of echoing Stalin ("One death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic"), one person's job loss is bad luck, but a million unemployed is definitely a structural problem in the economy and keeps it from recovering. Hasn't it been shown over and over that more spending power at the bottom gets the American economy moving better than any other stimulus? Certainly better than giving it to the banks. Giving more to the wealthy just encourages more bubbles in investment products, or stashes in offshore accounts.

Anonymous said...

About that refi in Hilo. Why do you merit a refi? You willingly entered into the finance agreement; why do you want to change the terms? Of course, who wouldn't want better terms. But why should your lender do that for you?

Bill M.

Roger Nusbaum said...

people refinance all the time, this is the interest rate risk that gnma investors face.

i never said i am entitled.

Anonymous said...

OT. Roger, here is a link to an interesting Barons article showing, among other things, that gold miners (GDX) are now above their 200 DMA:
http://tinyurl.com/calx6r
Do you think gold miners being above the 200 DMA means their demand is now long-term healthy?
Thanks,
JCarr

Roger Nusbaum said...

i prefer to use the 200 dma as an indicator for the broad market not sectors or groups.

that being disclaimed a stock being above its 200 dma would seem to benefit from healthy demand.

again i don't trade off this sort of thing.

Anonymous said...

Drudge has a link to a great CNBC video where Rick Santelli calls for a new "Tea Party" to protest this plan. He correctly says that "The government is promoting bad behavior...How many of you people want to pay for your neighbor's mortgage?"

I could not agree with him more.

Anonymous said...

I realize that jumping in after 20 comments doesn't get me much, but I have been trying to wrap my head around this thing as best I can.

Personally, I know I am getting nothing for paying my bills and bad behavior is getting a pat on the back. I get that. But if it happened in business, would the complaint be the same?

Suppose I don't carry sufficient fire insurance on a property or business because I am being "efficient". I have a fire and the fire department is great about coming quickly and putting it out. I go on to thrive and make a huge amount of money. On the other hand, my neighbor up the street carries a more realistic policy, but the payments keep his business from thriving because a lack of capital.

So let's suppose I don't get the handout from the government in terms of fire protection, which I will point out helps less that 1% of people. My store burns down. My neighbor's store burns down. It takes a lot of time to repair and depresses values for the whole block...

All I can come up with is your opinion matters depending on what you consider is catastrophic.

Stephen Drone said...

Huh. I didn't realized we had hit the low on the DOW again today.

Anonymous said...

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853&play=1

Santelli video mentioned above

Anonymous said...

Here's a link to vote for the Santelli Chicago Tea Party:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29283701

Vote and pass it on!

RW said...

Anon 12:36 has it right and, frankly, it would be good so see a few more folks taking the time to think things through.

And perhaps somebody can help me here but I can't seem to find the video where Santelli called for a tea-party when ten-times the money involved in the mortgage relief program was allocated to the banks and other financial institutions to spare poor struggling shareholders from being wiped out and hard working executives from losing their well earned bonuses.

Ummm, you mean that wasn't its purpose, it was to save the financial system from collapsing in a counter-party panic?

Oh, could something similar be said for reducing the default rate of the underlying assets that blew the counter-parties up, do you think?

Seems to me that's already been pointed out somewhere; e.g., "The heart of this problem continues to be the need to restructure the payment obligations of borrowers." (http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc090209.htm).

Now that that's out of the way, I've had a good run with GLD in my trading account recently -- with most currencies tanking and the USD increasingly regarded with suspicion (but not tanking, it's still a haven to many) -- gold has gained a lot of popularity but is now overbought. Since China is beginning to sell some of its foreign bonds (including our treasuries) and acquire commodities and commodity producers I'm fairly comfortable with the trend longer-term but this market is in a technical mess and it's giving me a headache and I haz a solution (see, I can stay on topic): There is a Steelhead trout with my name on it and it's time to go fishing (literally).

Anonymous said...

portectionism update


http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2165

Anonymous said...

"Seems to me that's already been pointed out somewhere; e.g., "The heart of this problem continues to be the need to restructure the payment obligations of borrowers." (http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc090209.htm)."


The way to restructure the payment obligations of borrowers is to let the person who saved for a down payment buy the house at the current market value now. If the original borrower needs to file bankruptcy, so be it. I don't think the answer should be to prop up a borrower that bought a house they could not afford with our (my) tax dollars. There, that clears that up.

As far as the bank bailouts, that was supposed to save our financial system, but perhaps it was another waste of our tax dollars. I don't think the shareholders have been saved, as evidenced by the recent bank common stock prices.

Anonymous said...

Great article by Richard Shaw..... S&P600 here we come!

Anonymous said...

Can it be this simple??

http://seekingalpha.com/article/121510-if-you-re-bearish-time-has-run-out-for-a-rally

Richard said...

Roger -
Suggested Cold remedy via Dr.Weil Wellness letter. Chop into small pieces 2 gloves of garlic. Swallow garlic pieces w/o chewing to avoid garlic breath. Do one time. cheers - Richard

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