There are people who share JackS' concern WRT to magnitude. I have not yet moved off of my normal bear idea yet, I can see where it might fall apart but for now I continue to believe it will be within the range of normal.
As I read the comment I started to think about the sector weightings of the S&P 500 which are as follows, according to the iShares page for its S&P 500 fund which trades under ticker IVV.
- Tech 16.37%
- Energy 15.18%
- Financials 14.07%
- Healthcare 12.51%
- Staples 11.30%
- Industrials 11.19%
- Discretionary 8.11%
- Utilities 4.08%
- Materials 3.72%
- Telecom 3.26%
In the decline thus far financials have gone from 21% or so down to 14%. How much further can the sector fall? Since the market's peak in October, so not the sector's peak, the financials as measured by Financial Sector SPDR (XLF) is down 45%. So a 45% decline has worked out to a 1/3 less weighting in the index.
Again, how much further can it realistically fall? Don't confuse my asking the question with a belief that a bottom is in but what is a reasonable expectation? If XLF were to fall by another 1/3 from here (which I think is more than will actually happen) that might work out to another 5% that comes out of the S&P 500, using simple math.
Both tech, measured by client holding iShares Technology (IYW), and industrials, as measured by Industrial Sector SPDR (XLI) are down the same, 20%, as the S&P 500 since last October but their weightings have inched up some, tech more so than industrials, because of the massive underperformance of the financials.
IYW topped out at the beginning of the decade near $136 versus $52 today. How much further can it fall? Based on how this bear market has shaken out is it likely that it could start to fall much more than the rate of the market? Again the tech decline has been in lockstep so something would need to change for tech to start falling faster.
Despite GE's having fallen from $42 down to $27-ish it still makes up16% of XLI so it has contributed a disproportionately large portion to the 20% decline of the sector. How likely is it the another 34% comes out of GE? If anything the rest of the sector might catch up to GE.
What about energy? Not surprisingly its weight has grown over the years and the notion that energy could correct is gaining some traction. I would not argue that the price appreciation has over stated how quickly supply and demand for oil is changing but energy cutting in half relative to the S&P 500 after peaking out at only a 16 or 17% weight would be very odd.
Staples should do well in a bear environment and they have done well so I'm not too worried about them taking down the market. Healthcare, while it has not done as well as you'd think it is doing better than the broad market and a catalyst for more declines emanating from here also seems unlikely. The smaller sectors could implode inward like a supernova without doing a lot of broad market damage.
The point here is not that the market has bottomed or that 40% can't happen but going sector by sector a lot of things would have to come together to create quite a storm for the decline thus far to only be the halfway mark.
A lot of things are down a lot and here we are down 20% for the broad market. A second decline of 40% or more within the same decade seems like a huge obstacle. It did happen during the 1930s. The high for the Dow was 381 in 1929. A low was put in in 1932 at 59. The ensuing rally topped out in 1937 at 194. The market then bottomed out again at 92 in 1942.
So is this decade as bad as the depression followed by World War II?





13 comments:
Roger, what are your thoughts on how the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debacle will play out? Thanks, JCarr
JCarr,
well not much has changed, opinion-wise since I wrote about it yesterday in the Mid-Morning post.
I laid out a scenario that seems plausible on an elemental level but this just in...i still don't know, lol.
bear sterns gone
fannie and freddie insolvent
house prices falling dramatically
Just your typical recession and bear market??????
I am rather glad I sold everything even if I have been wrong about several things.
I wish I knew when the next tradeable bounce was coming, unfortunately things are not that clear to me yet. None the less even if we bounce soon I do think we continue down more than your typical bear market.
I
Anon, at SPX 1242 we are down 21%. we are not in a declared recession (yet) so for now the this time is worse sentiment is all we have for certain (admitedly for now) and although it may be difficult to remember i am telling you we have been here many times.
i just looked up; spx 1232.
Roger. I re-read your post from yesterday morning. With oil going ever higher, the concern that drove the original question, and what did not register (for me) from the first reading, was your comment about a possible government bailout and the possible further weakening of the dollar, as a result of the bailout. Thanks for your analysis and thoughts. JCarr
I am not saying the sky will fall.
I am simply saying deeper and longer than normal.
the house price decline and associated defaults are the point you are not giving sufficient weight.
This is a very rare event that has not occurred since WWII, so the we have seen this before is just too complacent.
That said we will bounce back, but from lower levels and it will take a long time.
My comment around this bear being bigger than normal was centered around the grease that makes the financial world go around, the financials and credit. But I looked at the '73-'74 bear that was down 48.2% and the 2000-02 bear that had the market down just over 49% in two years, and on that history I based my pessimism.
Of course now the oil sector and maybe commodity based stocks will help prop up this market a little so the drop isn't so severe. But I would count on that.
IndyMac bites the dust as the plot thickens.
http://tinyurl.com/5s57cp
40% is looking quite possible right now to me.
maybe but Indymac going down is hardly a black swan.
I hope you are right Roger, but....
http://bankimplode.com/
http://ml-implode.com/
Another list of bad banks:
http://tinyurl.com/6fsqng
1974 bottom tested the earlier bottom made just a few years prior. So, let's not use 1929 as an example to prove your point. It shows you do have a bias.
Thank you Roger for providing your wise assessment of the situation and, at least for me, putting things in context and perspective - much appreciated, really.
FWIW (not much probably) I do agree with your basic premise: normal bear, reasons somewhat different - like they are for each and every bear. It will play itself out as part of the normal cycle.
I am very much aligned with your general plan - taken defensive actions which mitigated some of the pain (definitely not all of it) and as equity demand becomes healthier will gradually increase exposure.
SA.
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