Tuesday, October 10, 2006
Hulbert Pooh Poohs ETF Newsletters
A reader left a detailed question asking about Mark Hulbert's comments that wide bid ask spreads often cause ETF newsletters to lag newsletters that tout OEFs. Hulbert also said "If you trade only five times a year you end up with fees that exceed even the most expensive mutual funds."
Before I get into this let me say two things; first, I am not a big believer of trading in and out of various stocks and funds based on a newsletter with a short term focus, even if the past results are excellent the risk is still high and second I have to assume Hulbert is a very smart guy, certainly smarter than me.
There are a couple things here that don't quite add up or better put seem difficult to quantify.
First lets look at the spread issue. One of the ETF mentioned in the article was PowerShares Retail ETF (PMR). At the close on Monday it was $18.50 by $18.59 with the last trade on the primary at $18.53. The spread is wide, yes. If you saw that quote would you try a limit order somewhere in the middle? The Hulbert comment, as I read it, implies you can only get an execution at the ask to buy or the bid to sell. There is no way to know whether that is true or not. The last trade was $18.53, in the middle. In fact all 45,000 shares traded on all markets on Monday were in between the bid ask spread. Bloomberg terminals have a function called Trade Summary Matrix that has this information and a quick call to Schwab got me the info. Keep in mind I picked PMR at random because it was mentioned in the article.
Any attempt to quantify the disadvantage of a wide spread is very unlikely to be accurate. This not to say wide spreads aren't a problem, I just don't see how it can be quantified and if it can't be quantified I'm not sure how to hold it against anyone's results.
I am also unclear on the commission obstacle. Does anyone pay more that $12.95 per trade anymore? Per the article Hulbert says "if you trade only five times a year you end up with fees that exceed even the most expensive mutual funds." Five trades at $12.95 adds up to $64.75 per year. Generally speaking 0.60% makes for an expensive ETF, but there are a few that are more expensive.
An investor with $30,000 (I am picking a small number on purpose) in OEFs that average 1% (I think this is on the low side for OEFs?) in fees would pay $300 for the year. If that same investor made ten ETF trades (as opposed to the five cited by Hulbert) with an average of 0.60% in fees plus $129.50 in commission his total outlay would be $309.50 for the year. The extra $9.50 works out to an almost immeasurable bogey.
Let me state again I am not a fan of following newsletters for short term trading but I am not sure I can see problems outside of risk. I would think that Hulbert's findings of ETF newsletters lagging would be more about process and narrower choices than about spreads and commissions.
I had a few comments left on the Teresa Lo commentary. Thanks for the kind words and the humor. I was not, by any means, looking for a validation of what I do here. There is enough buffoonery (love that word) in the blogosphere, mainstream and the sellside that we should all be wary of. There are also plenty of very smart people from all three providing great content.
I think your success as a do-it-yourselfer will mean you take in content from all three but also learn who can help you and what you do and who cannot.
Before I get into this let me say two things; first, I am not a big believer of trading in and out of various stocks and funds based on a newsletter with a short term focus, even if the past results are excellent the risk is still high and second I have to assume Hulbert is a very smart guy, certainly smarter than me.
There are a couple things here that don't quite add up or better put seem difficult to quantify.
First lets look at the spread issue. One of the ETF mentioned in the article was PowerShares Retail ETF (PMR). At the close on Monday it was $18.50 by $18.59 with the last trade on the primary at $18.53. The spread is wide, yes. If you saw that quote would you try a limit order somewhere in the middle? The Hulbert comment, as I read it, implies you can only get an execution at the ask to buy or the bid to sell. There is no way to know whether that is true or not. The last trade was $18.53, in the middle. In fact all 45,000 shares traded on all markets on Monday were in between the bid ask spread. Bloomberg terminals have a function called Trade Summary Matrix that has this information and a quick call to Schwab got me the info. Keep in mind I picked PMR at random because it was mentioned in the article.
Any attempt to quantify the disadvantage of a wide spread is very unlikely to be accurate. This not to say wide spreads aren't a problem, I just don't see how it can be quantified and if it can't be quantified I'm not sure how to hold it against anyone's results.
I am also unclear on the commission obstacle. Does anyone pay more that $12.95 per trade anymore? Per the article Hulbert says "if you trade only five times a year you end up with fees that exceed even the most expensive mutual funds." Five trades at $12.95 adds up to $64.75 per year. Generally speaking 0.60% makes for an expensive ETF, but there are a few that are more expensive.
An investor with $30,000 (I am picking a small number on purpose) in OEFs that average 1% (I think this is on the low side for OEFs?) in fees would pay $300 for the year. If that same investor made ten ETF trades (as opposed to the five cited by Hulbert) with an average of 0.60% in fees plus $129.50 in commission his total outlay would be $309.50 for the year. The extra $9.50 works out to an almost immeasurable bogey.
Let me state again I am not a fan of following newsletters for short term trading but I am not sure I can see problems outside of risk. I would think that Hulbert's findings of ETF newsletters lagging would be more about process and narrower choices than about spreads and commissions.
I had a few comments left on the Teresa Lo commentary. Thanks for the kind words and the humor. I was not, by any means, looking for a validation of what I do here. There is enough buffoonery (love that word) in the blogosphere, mainstream and the sellside that we should all be wary of. There are also plenty of very smart people from all three providing great content.
I think your success as a do-it-yourselfer will mean you take in content from all three but also learn who can help you and what you do and who cannot.
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18 comments:
I have three accounts. One has fees of $9.95, another $12.95 and finally Vanguard charges me $22.50 per trade.
While their trading fees are high their money market rates are significantly better. I prefer to hold equities long enough so I only pay longterm capital gains. I also know how to transfer funds to brokerages with lower fees when necessary. But when you look at total costs (fees and interest rates) am I making a mistake?
Hi Roger
No doubt you have seen the ETF launches announced by SSGA today... some very interesting additions to the tool box. Some obviously cover existing ETFs, listed in Europe or US, but others are genuinely new (Middle East & Africa! Dividing Asia Pac into emerging and developed - nice touch. Not sure one wants to use these now, but nice to have the option for the future...).
Very interesting to see plans for a Global Infrastructure ETF - that seems to chime with the Zeitgeist: decent income potential, low cyclicality with implicit inflation protection.
Do you see yourself using many/any of these?
All the best
When I buy (or sell) an ETF, I add only a penny or two (or below) the last trade.This works almost all the time. I have never purchased an ETF on a market order, nor do I "trade" (churn) any fund. My trading costs are below eight bucks.I'm confident many of your readers do the same.My math says this is cheaper than owning the typical managed mutual fund, or worse yet, trading them like stocks.
Londoner, I do not know about these, do you have a link by chance?
Not knowing specifics I can say I own Vietnam personally and for a couple of clients. Safe to say I would be open to learning more about Africa and the mid east. I have written about Egypt before, there is a CEF for Egypt that trades in the UK.
T, agreed.
Anon,
I do not know the interest rate for the V-guard money market. I think this is just a math question though, yes?
I doubt mistake would be the best way to think about this, maybe more a question of efficiency??
It seems that most people who are poo-pooing ETFs are just jealous. They have an axe to grind. It just goes to show me that ETFs must be a good thing, or so many "Huberts" would not be coming out against them.
g
Yup - but I am not enough of a techie to know how to make it a hyperlink... help me out here!
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1168164/000095013506005397/b62087ape485apos.txt
There's also some comment on www.indexuniverse.com
Londoner, many blog sites won't allow coded HTML links or redirection in a comment so it's probably easier and more reliable to just paste the URL into the message.
If the link (URL) is a long one it could break when the post is reformatted by the blog server but shortening it first at http://tinyurl.com/ and then pasting the result takes care of that; very quick w/ a minimum of fuss.
RW,
I too am a luddite and never new where you got the tinyurls that you leave.
Thanks for the lesson
Could Zecco be the answer? No fees if you trade under 40 times per month (or so they say...)
http://www.zecco.com/Default.aspx
Wow two ETF posts today Roger you are laying the stink on heavy. If you're not getting paid to post about ETFs then you're really a fool! This blog is written for the investment mindless. What a bunch of garbage.
For months now we (at CrossProfit) have been tempted to put forth a philosophical question to Roger. In this last article once again Roger touts his second most favorite phrase; “do-it-yourselfer”. This is the straw that broke the camel’s back.
On the one hand, Roger is a professional investor who makes a living from investing client’s monies. On the other hand, Roger in his own way teaches via blogging how to manage a successful portfolio on your own. We are not saying that there can not be some middle ground and room for all. We do however; find it to be a tad irregular and somewhat perplexing. Were a fully licensed full service broker go out of her/his way to teach the general public how to use online brokers and circumvent the likes of himself, we would consult a psychologist to find out the name of the condition!
Please do not take this the wrong way. We think that what you are doing is great. You have demonstrated some thoughtful insights in more than just portfolio management. We just think that you are inadvertently cutting off the (tree) branch of your perch.
Yes – we would appreciate a detailed reply.
Disclosure: This comment was submitted by CrossProfit and does not state an opinion and is for educational/conversational purposes only.
http://www.crossprofit.com
To "Wow" unless shirley you jest, me thinks a lot of us have just been insulted.
CrossProfit:
I applaud Roger’s efforts to help and educate us by sharing his professional knowledge(more process that particulars). I also hope that he incidentally increases his business by a few people liking his strategy and deciding that personally for their particular situation they feel his services are appropriate for them. I participate is several other discussions groups that share professional information in electronics, programming, math and modeling. All of which I could get a very good consulting fee for but would rather contribute to the growth of the profession then charge for teaching. BTW I also learn through the process.
Many thanks to Roger.
CrossProfit:
You are one of those who just don't get it. There is no way for Roger to leave you a detailed explanation because you would not understand even if he did. I bet you have trouble sleeping at night, always having to look over your shoulder. My advice: Do some reading in Proverbs.
g
CrossProfit:
As generous as Roger is in sharing his observations and ideas, he isn't the only one.
Merriman Capital Management, with over $1 billion under management, provides an informational website, numerous model portfolios, timing systems (for those so inclined), free seminars, and a weekly podcast.
Given their success, I would say they're doing something right.
CrossProfit,
Lets get real!!
Roger has never claimed to be the only one and has many times quoted, refered to other source and linked to back or question his opinion. My guess is that anyone that has found this blog has also found other blogs and the likes of Merriman Capital, Altruist Financial Advisors LLC (DFA), Index Funds Advisors, Inc. Matching People with Portfolios, and numerous other sources of information not to mention libraries and book stores. The object is to sift and winnow and keep what ia approiate and we will venture on our way the wiser for interactiion with good people and good idea to take and fly with.
Cross Poinst,in the spirit of cooperation many blogs and componies have opened themselves.
If CrosssProfi would letdown some if its shield and let us in on who you are or claim to be. We might be abailable to see "cross point".
FWIW..
Again kudos to Rober
At this time of night I am not responible for grammer and spelling.
Lets give Roger a big round of appllause and a few pats on the pack for all the work he does for investing, commumity, sport, his wife and pets.
Hang in there Roger.
Look forward to your posts and reply, unfortunately by the time I can a lot of other posts and idead have been espressed.
But I will keep tryinig :-)
If I can ever get my pilots licence back(from medical reasons) I would like to fly in Prescott and have breakfast with Roger.
Thank you all for your comments but we were hoping to get a response from Roger.
Anonymous posted an explanation, George took it the wrong way and got a little defensive, Tom K posted an explanation, “Lets get real” Anonymous didn’t follow our philisophical question. BTW, ‘who we are’ is on the Seeking Alpha site, includig a picture of our CEO.
Anonymous (#1) and Tom K – thanks, but we would like to hear Roger’s thoughts. For some reason we don’t believe that Roger is doing this to drum up business for himself or his firm. What is seemingly a contradiction still persists.
Disclosure: This comment was submitted by CrossProfit and does not state an opinion and is for educational/conversational purposes only.
http://www.crossprofit.com
(Spell check n/a at time of posting)
Just catching up on my reading; what a fascinating quandry put forth by Crossprofit. It appears to me that Roger is just an individual who loves what he does. People who teach others what they know help to share their joy of learning. There is a deep spiritual value given to the donor by helping out the less knowledgeable and being able to see the light of understanding(in a virtual way). It only happens when the person sharing has no expectations of any returns. Not all rewards are monetary. George was more on task than you realize. Giving away time and knowledge to help others in a selfless way is all about spirituality. Tom in Indy
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